Proposed Discussion Post The Yawl AGM 2013

The discussion and comments so far and a reminder of the minuet from the August AGM, you committee will meet on the 7th of December to discus this so all comments will be useful input.

As I’m sure you are all aware this is an emotive subject as is owning a Yawl and I hope we will all look at this for the good of the whole fleet.

Andrew Y74

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AGM Augast 2013

Dave Greening said that he had recently returned to Yawl racing and was sorry to find so few Red fleet boats sailing on Saturdays. He said he would like to see the Yawls sailing as one fleet without a handicap system, just prizes overall with the re-introduction of old boat prizes.

Barney Greenhill said he hoped the Committee could do something to halt the continuing decline in the number of Yawls participating in Club series racing. He suggested that in order to encourage “younger blood” there could be a prize for a boat with a SYC cadet crewing.

Spud Rowsell (Y184) expressed his opinion that the fleet is dying, his Yawl has been on the market for 2 years. One potential purchaser would have bought the boat but only if it could be sailed in the Blue fleet. He wants the Yawls to sail as one fleet.

Barney Greenhill pointed out that the Harbour Master limits the number of Yawls on the start line.

Spud suggested a Merlin fleeting system.

Andrew Wood said that his blue fleet boat has also been on the market for 2 years and that if current owners turned up for Saturday racing there would be no problem.

Jon Lewis said that the market for Blue fleet boats was suffering equally with that of the Red fleet.

Geof Gilson suggested that for the first year of ownership new purchasers be allowed to sail in any fleet –being promoted if they did well. He said we already have boats sailing in the Blue fleet that were measured as Red fleet boats.

There was a discussion about boats being divided into fleets and Simon Hotchin (Y117) gave the example of International Canoes as another development class that raced as separate fleets.

Bill Fellows (Y49) said that his was one of the boats that is infrequently used but that he was happy to offer it to someone else to sail.

John Smithers said there had been much discussion on fleeting but none on handicapping. He asked what is wrong with handicapping as we do in the mini series.

The Chairman said that he intends to go the Starcross sailing club to see their timing system in action. We have been offered their system which makes timing much simpler for the Race box and would allow handicapping to be regularly implemented.

Graham Pike (Y154) put forward a request that the Committee re -examine the problem and the Chairman said that a discussion on formation of a sub committee would be started on the website.

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Hello Andrew and committee,

I understand you are meeting shortly to discuss the above.

From my own perspective the blue fleet seems to be working well with reasonable numbers on the big occasions.

This is also probably true for the red fleet.

Gold fleet also seems to work well.

There can be no doubt however that our SYC Saturday races could do with more coming to the start line.

Quite often Blue fleet are more in evidence than reds.

I know of the arguments around red fleet boats not selling but respectfully suggest that this alone is not a good reason to change the fleeting.

I attended a meeting once where a decision was made to introduce handicapping which I supported.

Unfortunately this was short lived with the club seeming to say it was difficult to keep the times.

This has to be unacceptable for any yacht club worth it’s salt.

I would support a new initiative to introduce Yawl handicapping again,one benefit being that it does actually bring more interest to the Saturday racing.

I am sure handicapping would also help boat sales in better economic times. It doe however mean that all must be prepared to “muck in” and suffer sailing with us muppets in the blue fleet from time to time.

I hope this helps

Yours

Peter Y161

Dear Andrew,

Having stepped back into the Yawl this year I have concluded that although I have enjoyed the experience, club racing of Salcombe Yawls in the various series is at a delicate place.

Although I don’t speak for the Yacht Club anymore, other classes within the SYC Handicap fleet appear to have a better claim for fleet starts than either the Red Yawl or Blue Yawl fleets on a standalone basis. Sadly for someone looking for regular competition it would seem that one would be better looking elsewhere.

It is also noticeable that quite a few modern Yawls are dropping out of competitive racing, and on closer examination some of these boats are falling into disuse due to their owner’s losing interest, due to age, fitness or boredom. Sadly for these owners, there seems to be no market for their boats at any price. The two “Red” boats that have been recently changed hands have been sold for cruising at fire sale prices … a travesty.

It seems to me that however we try and gloss over it, the Red Fleet and the Blue Fleet are considered to be two quite separate classes, on the water at least, and this spills over into the social scene, since we have few shared experiences between each fleet.

A comparison could be made with a fleet of National 12’s and Enterprises who share the same water, but are never in the same race. Each will have their diehard supporters, but no-one is interested in trading to the other fleet.

If the class is to thrive in the future, rather than slowly decline along with our owners, with boats gathering dust in barns, we must improve our offer. Social events have their place, but the fundamental issue is in the quality and depth in Yawl racing.

I therefore make the following “constructive” proposals for the committee’s consideration. These are intended to address the competitive aspects of the class and I accept that there is no instant panacea but I would suggest that these are worth a try, even if only for a year.

Club Racing

I appreciate that some owners who have “Blue” yawls and those who have “Red” have vested interests in trying to keep the two sections of the fleet apart, but the Red and Blue system was only ever introduced in order to manage starts that were approaching 30 boats back in the nineties.

Club racing has never had anything like this number of boats on the start line and the division of the results into the two sections reduces the appeal and competition within the fleet.

In the recent Summer Series there were only 2 blue and 3 red fleet qualifiers counting a full set of finishes, in the Sailing Club Series this dropped to 1 and 2 respectively.

On at least one occasion there was only one Blue Fleet Yawl racing and one Red Fleet Yawl racing, but they were not allowed to race each other.

Something has to be done, or Salcombe Yawl racing would be better relegated to the Handicap Fleet (not a completely undesirable outcome from a racers perspective).

I would like to suggest that the SYOA asks the SYC to do away with Red and Blue fleet racing at club level, and replace it with either:

1. One Salcombe Yawl fleet start and set of results, with additional prizes awarded for Classic (Blue) fleet boats.

Or

2. One Salcombe Yawl fleet start and set of results, with Modern and Classic boats racing under handicap for one set of prizes.

The benefit of either system would be to double the number of qualifiers to a single series, and more importantly to encourage competition between everyone who arrives on the Salcombe Yawl start line for club races.

For any class racing to succeed there must be a critical mass of regulars, which gives other owner’s the confidence that there is a race that it is worth turning up for.

I would suggest a consultation with all of those who have competed in more than one club race (apart from open meetings) to sound them out and see if they prefer option 1 or 2 (or neither!)

The advantage of Option 1 is that it would be easier to administer since no timings are required, it is also the “purer” solution since it recognizes that we all are measured to the same set of rules, it also guarantees prizes to older and newer boats.

Option 2 may appeal more to the “Blue” fleet owners, since it gives them a better perceived opportunity to beat the “Red” boats. The principle is probably an anathema to anyone who has sailed other Restricted or Development classes. However this option has to be better than the status quo.

The disadvantage of option 2 is that it is reliant on race officers recording the finishing time, and also that the result is not known until the results have been calculated.

I would add as a proviso, that the PY’s of Modern and Classic boats should be reassessed on an annual basis to ensure that balance is maintained.

There is a small problem with either system, and that is that you would have difficulty using the Saturday results from the open meetings as part of a series. Personally I don’t think that this is a big issue (and may be a benefit) there is a hard core of owners who race at club level (we know who they are) and apart from them, few of the Bank Holiday sailors are able put together a series.

Salcombe Yacht Club Regatta

I believe that it is within the remit of the class to advise SYC of the style of racing the SYOA would prefer.

Currently there it an atmosphere of Red, Blue and Gold fleet and never the twain shall meet. There may have been a justification for this when there were 70 Yawls, with a maximum accepted starting number of 30, but now our total numbers are in the high 40’s this approach is hard to justify, and is having a detrimental effect on participation by some owners.

Firstly, I would suggest disestablishing the Gold fleet, those who are racing in it are not in-experienced sailors, one even helmed the winning boat in the Round the Island race.

The next suggestion is to pool all of the racing yawls (regardless of age) and divide them into four equal sized groups, seeded by expected performance, this year each group would have consisted of twelve boats.

For the first three days, each group would race against each of the other groups as is done in Merlin Rocket Week. At the end of the third day the entire fleet is ranked (allowing for one discard).

The fleet is then divided into equal haves as Gold and Silver fleets for the remaining three days.

Each boat is allowed to carry forward the points for their place from the “selection series”, to make up a three results out of four series.

The existing pool of trophies can be allocated between all of the races, and there is scope to include “Classic” boat prizes within both fleets.

Although I would propose this on an experimental basis for a year, the system would cope with growth back to around 60 boats (happy days). If the fleet returns to 60+ then consideration could be given to reinstating a Gold Fleet.

Advantages

1. No delineation between Red and Blue Fleet boats. 2. Round robin would spice up the style of racing, different from the norm. 3. Provides a Festival of Yawl Sailing vibe. 4. Regatta Week would become a genuine Salcombe Yawl National Championship.

If the SYOA were to adopt these policies, the value and enjoyment of the Classic boats could be preserved, if not enhanced with the improved health of the class.

At the same time the class would offer the opportunity for owners to trade up to newer and shinier yawls if they so wish, and also to allow the helmsman/crew/boat combination to find their natural level.

At the recent AGM some members seemed to construe that any attempt to delineate between the Red and Blue fleet as something driven by the vested interest of member’s trying to sell their boats.

Rather than criticise those members for identifying a serious problem that exists within the class, the class should identify the need for a market for owners to trade up to newer boats.

There is a much smaller cost differential between the classic and modern boats than is often bandied around. A healthy second hand market is the lifeblood of the class. This can be seen by looking at the Solo class or the Merlin Rocket class second hand lists, where decent boats are sold within hours.

At this time nobody is going to order a new yawl if they cannot see an exit route, this will ultimately mean that we shall lose our handful of builders in time.

I have a feeling that the pursuit of these initiatives might be just the “breath of fresh air” that the class needs, and you might find that some of the boats that are for sale, or are laid up in barns may come out to play once more.

Examination of our web forums and newsletters would suggest that nobody is prepared to take the risk of advancing solutions to these issues which have been raised before, but I genuinely think that the class is sitting on a precipice.

I would be more than happy to assist in moving either of these proposals forward or fleshing them out if it would be of any assistance.

Finally, I have written throughout this letter of Red, Blue and Gold fleets and also of Modern and Classic. Personally I think that Modern and Classic are better descriptions of our boats, and pays more respect to Classic boats and might encourage more quality restorations. How about adopting these as the default descriptions of our boats?

Kind Regards,

David Greening Yawl 177 Spruce Goose

Dear Andrew

With regard to the forthcoming meeting in December to discuss the current fleeting of the yawls you have already got my comments raised after the AGM. However, I though for clarity I would set out below my views on the current arrangements. I bought a Blue Fleet Yawl in 2007 as it promised affordable and competitive racing (and has delivered) within the confines of a fleet that was not a strict one design but had established a sensible principle from which to operate.

As all are aware the current makeup of the Red Fleet solely comprises either Morrison or Howlett designs, although there is nothing to stop an alternative designer building a new design to the class rules as they stand. There were a number of yawls completed either before or after the division of the fleets which were not designed by either Morrison and Howlett and were far more akin in characteristics of the older designs that now comprise the Blue Fleet.

It is recognised by most that the yawls that currently make up the Blue Fleet are on the whole slower than the Red Designs.Tthat is not too say that Blue Fleet Yawls cannot sometimes and in some conditions beat the more modern designs on the water. However, I am sure those that traded up from Blue to Red did so as they knew they were getting a quicker boat.

As was apparent at this years Regatta the Blue Fleet currently has very competitive racing with these yawls on the whole reasonably evenly matched although one or two yawls of different ages have a speed edge in certain conditions but certainly not an all round edge or in all conditions. This situation would change if owners of current Red Fleet Yawls were allowed to race within the Blue Fleet as any competent sailor would have the required all round edge acknowledged for these designs. If this happened it would destroy the competitiveness of the Blue Fleet racing and I suspect would cause a decline in the use of and restoration of these older yawls. At the moment there is still interest from owners to join the Blue Fleet as it is seen as affordable and provides fun but competitive racing, and it is clear from discussions that I have had with both new blue fleet owners and those interested in joining the fleet that this is what is attracting and ensuring this part of the Salcombe Yawl fleet is still growing.

I do not hold to the idea that the split of the fleets is preventing either new yawls being built or the trading of existing Red Fleet Yawls. The issue at the moment is still one of more austere financial circumstances there are not many people around who are wiling to commission a new yawl at a cost circa £40k when this would buy two new Merlin Rockets. Secondhand values at say £20-25k also remain out of reach of most of the local sailors.

Going back in history the slit of the fleets effectively was driven due to number constraints on the startline at the main annual events, and it coincided in a sudden growth in the newer designs to a point where they had outgrown and outclassed the Blue Fleet. It seems from reviewing past archive that as this new concept of the two fleets developed both fleets were pretty happy with how this panned out as all got what we all want good competitive racing. The more recent experiment of splitting the Red fleet in two for Regatta also seems to have been a success and seems the perfect answer to those that perhaps want a slightly more benevolent fleet for the less experienced sailor to sail in.

We all want to see more yawls on the water every Saturday and we now start together as a combined fleet and race on handicap. I can tell you that I and most of the other Blue Sailors who race against the Red Yawls do enjoy it when we occasionally beat one of these on the water but on the whole we concentrate on the tussle with our own fleet and pay little or no attention to the handicap outcome. I have no problem with racing in this way on Saturday afternoons and it is good to have one start with more yawls on the water.

Going forward I would suggest that the Blue Fleet should from now on include any non Morrison/Howlett designs that already exist which may or may not have been launched either before or after the launch of 141 and this would remove any lingering doubts rumour or any other thoughts. Any new yawl built from now on from any design should automatically become a new Yawl. My one stipulation on this is that if someone wanted to commission an old style yawl such as a copy of any of the existing Blue Fleet Yawls they should be allowed to do so. I consider that this is an unlikely proposition but I think it should be allowed.

I do not personally consider that the current split in the fleets is inhibiting the growth in the class or preventing the turnover of boats for resale. These things tend to be cyclical and I think it is more to do with economics that is preventing the fleet growing and high secondhand prices in comparison to other classes that is seeing a slow turnover of yawls. The older yawls still offer a cost effective means of sailing these boats and that is why there has been a greater turnover of these older yawls over the last 12 months. I think changing the fleeting arrangements would cause a reduction of interest in sailing the older boats and although there is a slight chance that this will enable one or two of the newer yawls to be sold it will not help the growth of the Yawl fleet. I also think that the defection of Yawl sailors to the Solos may be a trend that will change and over the next couple of years we will see a return of some solo sailors to yawls. The reason that solos are so successful is it offers fantastic regular one design racing in fleets of over 20 nearly every Saturday. A change of our fleets to a more handicapped system would in my view be something I would not want to participate in.

Regards,

Andrew

Andrew Wood

Hi All,I feel that there is a lot in favour of the status quo.The modern red fleet designs are simply faster than the traditional blue fleet boats,in big events it is simply not fair to race one against the other..You mention the merlin-rocket fleet.I have a modern merlin which I race at Salcombe week etc but there is also a thriving vintage fleet with it’s own circuit and lots of us also have an old vintage boat and the ability for them to sail against each other has helped to keep a lot of these old boats on the water.I feel the blue fleet racing has also kept a lot of the old original yawls in the good condition that we see them today,all the best,

Hywel

Yawl 98,Sandpiper

The Fleeting of Yawls

My initial thought on the fleeting issue was that when red and blue Yawls race together they should be handicapped, so when early this year the Assoc published PY 1096 for Red and 1133 for Blue I thought this could usefully be introduced into normal weekly races.

We are all keen to increase the weekly turnout of Yawls, and much better that we sail in a single handicap race than have two sets of results when only say 5 boats sail. The results would serve to refine the handicap and could possibly open the opportunity for older red Yawls to sail in the blue fleet.

For the Open and Regatta events handicapping would not be conventional so moving on…

The suggestion of flighting all the Yawls in the Open and Regatta events, pitches everyone together similar to Merlin Week but glosses over the clear difference in speed and handling between the red and blue Yawls which on bigger start lines could create significant issues with holding lane, tacking agility and so on. It seems quite unfair really to the older Yawls if they just get rolled over

I searched around for parallel situations and the Merlin association web site makes interesting reading on the results from their three main events this year. Also I noted that in club handicap racing a boat is considered to be “old” when the boat nos is pre 3554 (14yrs old) and attracts a higher PY.

At the Inlands, of 44 entries 6 were “old”, highest place was 19th and the others all took the last places.

At the Nationals, of 65 entries only 3 were “old” and two of those were tail-enders.

At Salcombe Week, of 115 entries 4 “old” boats were better than 70th and 14 were slower.

The various write-ups of the events only talked about the winning boats with no mention of the fortunes of the “old” boats.

On the National 12 web site there is a similar cut off for “old” boats, and results from Burton Week showed 38 entries, of which 5 were “old” with three of those being tail enders. Again only the front boats got a mention in the write-ups.

What all this seems to show is that…

1…in main competition events “old” boats are regarded as also-rans, and all the attention is focused on the top performers (probably sailing in their latest design).

2…The “old” boats loose their own collective identity and coverage.

3…As ”old” boats were a small percentage of the entries the problem is contained, and likely does not challenge the main focus of the event and the supremacy of the modern designs.

4… With the current 50/50 approx split between the red and blue Yawls we currently see racing in the main events, the situation in the main Yawl events is clearly very different.

One drifts towards the conclusion that there seems little merit in racing “old” boats openly against modern ones, other than low cost or maybe simple affection; nor in having major refurbishment works undertaken. In short a top racing fleet where some design flexibility is allowed will roll out the new boats at the expense of old boats generally dropping out of the back of main competition. Why would the Blue fleet want regularly to embrace the characteristics of this type of racing?

In the regatta this year there were 21 red 20 blue and 9 gold, some 26% of all the Yawls built. The Club is surely proud that such a high proportion of the total are racing competitively on their home water, so any resolve to the fleeting must encourage retention of older boats, not compromise the principles of the supportive structure provided by the Blue (“vintage”) fleet.

Yes, it would be good to have the variety of us all sailing in flights at some main events but with a Blue fleet that is currently well supported and has a strong identity I don’t think this should be the dominant form of racing.

Again, moving on…the call for some red Yawls to be eligible for the Blue fleet is seen as necessary to free up the Red fleet for new boats to be built but is this fair?

With the blue Yawls the hulls are far from the perfect shape and there is a variety of rigs. It just has to be accepted that some go quick in lights and others in heavies. Some up wind, some off wind. The racing this year has however been very tight and exciting, with several helms coming to the front; and off the water friendships are strong. The strict limit on the number of Yawls eligible for this fleet provides the motivation to undertake costly refurbishments so as to regain speed, reliability and looks; and this underpins the currently good health of the Blue fleet.

Opening the Blue fleet to unrestricted numbers of red Yawls puts the above foundations of the Blue Fleet at risk. If the argument progresses that only “older” red Yawls would be eligible, then yet another arbitrary line has to be drawn as to what is “older”. If it is only to be allowed for less experienced sailors, who will decide eligibility and what would be the criteria for subsequently asking them to move across to the Red Fleet? Back to square one. Furthermore why refurbish a blue Yawl if one could instead buy a red Yawl and probably go even faster?!

The notion that the Blue Fleet is somehow more suited to less experienced sailors is I believe a convenient notion of the Red Fleet. The racing is probably just as tight in the Blue fleet and when pitched against top sailors Blue fleet sailors have shown they are no push over. Blue yawls have no more wish to have the safety of their boats compromised by uncontrolled manoeuvres than anyone else, but I do think there is a more relaxed approach to the racing that fosters a good level of tolerance.

It is too easy to forget that we race on unusually restricted and hazardous waters, particularly the closed-ends start zone where it is quite easy to get it wrong, and that it is extremely embarrassing to cause damage to someone else’s boat. The Yawls are expensive and easily damaged, and all this can be very intimidating and unappealing to some new comers.

Within the premier quality racing of the red fleet it is understandable that several of it’s top sailors want to change their boats for the latest design thinking, so want to sell-on. Others simply want to sell out, but in such a top racing fleet, competitive newcomers naturally have a preference for best equipment, and in recessionary times the aspirations of both new and used Yawl buyers will be constrained by cost. This is not the fault of the fleeting system.

So I think here we come to the crux of it. In each fleet, there has to be an element of tolerance that not all boats will be handled in an accurate and reliable way, and an acceptance that enthusiastic newcomers may on occasions get it wrong or get in the way of the racing line. Surely that is what any open entry fleet has to embrace if it wants to be well supported within a friendly environment.

To conclude I think…

1…Handicap racing should be introduced for normal weekly races

2…Eligibility to the Red and Blue fleets should not change, and Green used as circumstances require. The Gold fleet for those that just like informal racing should be cherished.

3…Fleet racing should predominate but Flighting at some events would offer variety.

4… All sailors should embrace the attitude that the Yawl fleets are open to any skill level rather than by qualifying, just as virtually all other dinghy racing is in this country.

John Smithers

Y 19

22 October 2013

Hi Everyone,

I would be in favour of keeping things as they are.

My reasoning is partly based on my recent experiences as a race officer:

As I pointed out at the Yawl AGM, the International Canoe dinghy fleet is going through the same process of amalgamating their 3 fleets, with their non-asymmetric fleet already split into two (Morrison or ‘Classics pre GBR 308’) alongside the Asymmetric fleet. At this year’s canoe AGM it was agreed that all canoes would sail the same course on handicap and the results would be split into a combined fleet with handicaps of 870, 895 and 908 respectively … and also reported separately for the three sub fleets of AC, IC and Classics. As their race officer contending with this new format, I can say that the the time and effort involved in running this type of event is very demanding and as stated on the Canoe forum ‘could not be run by the average club race officer’. Not only do you have to keep all the times for each lap but you have to finish each fleet on its merits (how many sailors understand the flags?). As a result you get different fleets sailing different numbers of laps and the results have to be worked out as a whole using average laps and different handicaps (Sailwave can cope, but requires a lot of input, about 30 minutes for each race in this instance: the actual results took until the next day to work out correctly).

On the sailing side this format does appear to look great; one start, one course, all sailing together in one bigger fleet, which is where my second point becomes relevant. During this year’s Canoe open when I was race officer there were comments about the start line length to accomodate the extra boats and a problem that the slower fleet boats had little chance of competing on the start line. This could be somewhat compensated for on the non-tidal waters (reservoir) by a longer start line but I believe would be more of an issue at Salcombe, given the size of the Fairway and the tides etc. Blue fleet be aware that you will be buried by Mill bay on an incoming tide and a southerly start if we sail as a combined fleet.

Up to now, all the debates have centred around the boats, however all the drivers for mixing the fleets have not taken into consideration these other issues and seem to be more about Red fleet selling their boats. Whilst the race officer during Salcombe regatta week would not have a problem working out the results, I am not sure that this is the case for other events or club weekends. Bad results mean stress for all!

Overall I believe that the current format of separate Blue and Red fleets works well and the race officers have proven that they can cope with this format. I would hate to see sailors complaining about the hard work put in by the race office if we change this format in the future.

Hence I would be in favour of keeping things as they are.

Regards,

Simon (Wagtail: Y119)

NB. Only one Classic boat turned up for this year’s canoe open and he elected to sail in the ‘Morrison’ fleet. This makes me wonder how many yawl sailors would actually turn up if there was only one handicap yawl fleet?

Hi Andrew

I regret that I am not a regular racer of my Yawl, simply because I still hang onto my dreams of racing my other dinghies in both Salcombe and Plymouth.

I do however greatly enjoy the Open weekends when we get a series of races with some good competition on one full weekend of racing. My preference/recommendation would be to try and increase these weekends but keep the 2 Blue and Red fleets as they are. What about every other month – say 4 in the year.

The series weekly racing appears to be a bit in the doldrums. I would recommend consideration of merging the 2 fleets for the sake of getting more boats onto a single start line, but introduce a personal handicap system. As an aside I race on Friday evenings at Plymouth and as this is handicap racing they deduct 5 points off the winners handicap on each race thus pegging back the regular winners. If the top Red fleet are faster then they will be progressively handicapped to theoretically create a level playing field. Perhaps the winner loses a minute on handicap time and 2nd loses 30 seconds. If you come last or second to last then you gain on handicap time allowance.

All racing does however need to understand the reality that some performance comes from differential boat speed but also a lot is down to the quality of the crew sailing the boat!! That is as self-evident in the Blue fleet as well as the Red.

Kind Regards – John

John McLaren

Andrew

My thoughts for what they are worth.

This year for Yacht Week I deliberately moved myself up from Gold to Blue fleet. I did this because the most, if not all, of the boats I enjoyed racing against were now in the Blue Fleet. There were about 5 or 6 of us at the bottom of the Blue Fleet and I had what is probably the most enjoyable weeks racing I have ever had with the group of us having our own “race within a race”. When, more by luck than by skill, I did occasionally get mixed up with the boats higher up the fleet I did not feel overly intimidated despite knowing that my capabilities were distinctly lesser than many of the faster Blue boat helms.

What is the point of all this? Well, given that this whole debate seems to have been sparked off by comments to the affect that people want to buy Red fleet boats but would only do so if they could sail them in the Blue fleet, it seems to me that I have done precisely the opposite, i.e. taken a slower boat and sailed it in a faster fleet, yet had no problems whatsoever. So I therefore question the whole reason why someone would want to take a Red fleet boat, known to be faster than a Blue fleet boat, and sail it in the Blue fleet.

Is it because they are intimidated by the thought of sailing in the Red fleet (and yes, we have all heard the cursing and swearing that can go on)? If that is the case then that is a problem the Red fleet need to address themselves. But is it really as bad as that? Have we heard from some of the guys at the bottom of the Red fleet in a similar position to that which I am in the Blue fleet?

Or is it because they don’t think they will be able to win anything in the Red fleet? Well, I am afraid that just smacks of “pot hunting”.

I would vote to stay with the status quo.

David Sworder

Y89.

agree completely,Hywel Y98

On the sailing side this format does appear to look great; one start, one course, all sailing together in one bigger fleet, which is where my second point becomes relevant. During this year’s Canoe open when I was race officer there were comments about the start line length to accomodate the extra boats and a problem that the slower fleet boats had little chance of competing on the start line. This could be somewhat compensated for on the non-tidal waters (reservoir) by a longer start line but I believe would be more of an issue at Salcombe, given the size of the Fairway and the tides etc. Blue fleet be aware that you will be buried by Mill bay on an incoming tide and a southerly start if we sail as a combined fleet.

Dear Andrew,

We have been asked to contribute our views on Yawl fleeting. I would be grateful if you could include the following in your considerations:

1. I strongly support trying something to increase the number of Yawls racing. If what is tried doesn’t work, it can always be reversed or something else tried. Inaction is unlikely to improve things.2. New designs of Yawls are faster than older ones. Morrisons are faster than Stones, Howletts are faster than Morrisons. If you wish to introduce a handicap system it must reflect the step changes in design and performance that have been achieved.3. I am not in favour of dividing the fleet based on ability. Racing against good sailors is how the rest of us improve and learn.

It’s a difficult task to come up with a path forward and I wish you and your committee all the best in your efforts.

Best regards,Simon

Simon Dobson

Andrew,

Many thanks for your email.

Please note that I support Andrew Wood’s thinking on this.

Plus handicapping for Saturday (non-Open meeting/ regattas) could be beneficial.

Rgds

Guy

Hi Woody,

Thank you for alerting me to the recent flurry of correspondence on Yawl fleeting. Without some mechanism for alerting members to new posts on the SYOA website, (is there one?) its difficult to stay in touch.

I do have “feet in both camps”. However I am not presently motivated by any desire to sell Firecrest (Y187). I am disappointed by the decline in Yawl fleets. When I joined the fleet in 2008 it was in the ascendant. The high spot for me was the sea meeting that Clive ran in 2009(?). Red and blue sailed together, in a championship sized fleet. Y97 finished well up in single figures among the leading red boats, and Y140 wasn’t far behind, and if I remember rightly, we were both pretty chuffed at our results.

Two weeks ago red and blue sailed together in the Baltic Exchange weekend. I was sailing 140, and the fact that a couple of red fleet boats pulled away from us didn’t detract at all from the enjoyment of the racing, or the satisfaction in beating several red fleet boats.

Instinctively I favour sailing together as a single fleet, and I would like to see more of that. Where we are fortunate enough to have enough starters, I would like to try a merlin type solution, sailing in flights.

I don’t think that Yawls are alone in their decline in numbers. Other classes have seen similar decline, and SYC Regatta entries have declined similarly. I suspect that the run of 5 successive wet and windy Augusts have contributed to a general lack of enthusiasm, as has the economic situation. When confidence returns, I think that numbers (and new boat orders) will pick up. The yawl offers matchless opportunity to sail a fantastic boat in an unrivalled setting. We just need to make sure that the fleet offers a range and depth of competition so that it continues to attract top sailors graduating from other classes (who might be sufficiently motivated to commission a new boat) as well as less experienced sailors who just like the look of the boat and want to buy in to the full-on Salcombe experience. OK its expensive, but a yawl costs no more than a Merc and there is no shortage of those around Salcombe. They both lose half their value in the first couple of years. And anyway, two of the boats that are currently showing the red fleet the way round the estuary are middle-aged by red fleet standards, so you don’t need to change boats regularly to stay competitive.

As far as attendance at club races is concerned, I don’t live in Devon, so I can’t be a regular Saturday entrant. However Elizabeth and I did set out last year with the intention of competing in Andrew’s Olympic series. In the event, the challenge of getting our Yawl out of Tristan’s barn, down to the creek and onto our mooring in time for a single Saturday race, and then putting it all back again was too much of a deterrent. I don’t want to leave my boat unattended on a mooring for 3 or 4 weeks at a time. So what deters me, and probably many other potential entrants is the two unique features of Salcombe YC, ie:

1. No dinghy park. I don’t know of any other club in the country that doesn’t provide dinghy parking for members. As a non-resident I don’t even get on the waiting list for a space in the Council dinghy park.

2. No club sailing on Sundays. How wierd is that? It always amazes me to be in Salcombe on a Sunday with a fair wind and no racing.

So as far as I’m concerned, I am broadly in favour of mixed fleets, but I don’t feel strongly about it, and I don’t think the red/blue division is the reason for red fleet decline. Somewhere to park my boat near the water on the Salcombe side, and racing on Sundays would encourage me to particpate in club racing (and would make it easier to compete in weekend meetings).

Realistically none of this is likely to happen, so our next outing will be next May Bank Holiday.

Thanks again for including me in this discussion. I don’t have a password for the SYOA site, so happy for you to post this for me.

Regards,

Andy

Y187 Firecrest and Y140 La Chouette

I admire you Andrew for taking this matter on as you are not the first Yawl chairman to attempt to resolve the matter, but I do hope you are the last.I strongly believe that there is a very strong case to mixing the fleets and probably introducing a system that protects the classic boats in their quest for glory. I am sure that no one would want to see a system introduced that favoured one or other of the Yawl types.I would like to bring into the debate my own personal experience of racing in both the blue and red fleet. I started racing in Yawls some twelve years ago when Geoff Gilson kindly lent me Y16 for a spring open meeting. I had never sailed one before but went on to win all four races.Later that year my own Yawl was finished and I started to complete in the red fleet. From that day to this I have only ever won one race, and a few of you may remember it because I retired to the bar and bought everyone a drink. To my recollection it cost me £75.More recently I have sailed twice in regatta week in the blue fleet helming Y100 with both Simon Stewart and Hamish as crews. On both occasions we won by a comfortable margin allowing me to maintain my 100% record winning in the blue fleet.So what does this say, surely it tells us that the standard of helming in the blue fleet falls well short of the standard in the red fleet and that frankly this fleeting idea is a red herring. Please don’t get me wrong, I do not think I am a good helm and indeed I would and many in front of me in the red fleet would class me as muppet. For instance if I get anywhere near the front of the red fleet they all start checking for weed.The time has come in view of the dwindling numbers to integrate the fleets together and finally resolve this matter once and for all.I hope this helps the debate.Y172Clive Jacobs

As I represent one of those who’s enthusiasm has been distracted over the past few seasons my perspective may be less emotional than in times past.I agree with David that ‘modern’ and ‘classic’ is a better description, and still remain convinced that Opens and Regatta should retain this separation of two fleets, unless numbers warrant extra starts.I also stand by the definition I introduced to retain Modern as any new boat designed by Morrison and Howlett, and any new design appearing in the future. The Classic fleet is everything else and this has been well established and understood for ten years.

SYC club racing has not suffered as a result of the fleet division, but a combination of ; a change in ownership that expanded the fleet but with more owners living away, a move to dry sailing that reduces the convenience of a Saturday afternoon sail, and a resurgence in the Solo fleet, not to mention other distractions like Golf or Yacht ownership, struggling to get crew…etc.

The value of Yawls is driven by supply and demand, and at this moment in time, demand is simply relatively low for all Yawls and there are,for a variety of reasons , plenty to go round. This is not just a Yawl experience but is a far more general story, just ask a yacht owner trying to sell ! We should not be distracted by the economics.

I will return to Saturday sailing when other distractions allow me to.I can’t help feeling that SYC should hold the line and keep a single start and when I turn up and sail against a Classic boat and get beaten it will be down to me, I will still enjoy sailing on one of the most attractive and challenging estuaries in the world, irrespective of my boat. I am also sure that when a Classic beats me they too will enjoy it, and if I did stay ahead then they can say ‘ well he has got a faster boat’!Numbers will return….have some faith, it is still one of the most magical things to do in any type of Yawl….I now might even try to get out there more!Martin Beck Y 181 ,Chairman many moons ago.

In my epistle which I sent to Andrew some months ago, I proposed a system for SYC Regatta, with 3 days of flight “round robin” racing and 3 days of fleet racing based on the round robin results. Following discussion with some Yawl sailors who had experienced a similar system at a Merlin Week a while back, I would like to add a third possible format; 6 days of Merlin Week style flight racing, with an Auburn Cup shoot off for the top 20-25 boats on the Saturday immediately following the Regatta.

I am not suggesting that flighted racing should be the default, more that we should mix things up a bit to encourage greater integration, and a better “festival of Yawl sailing” atmosphere.

I should point out that I am far more concerned about the future of the Salcombe Yawl for club racing at this moment, it is relying on the 2 or 3 Red and Blue fleet boats that regularly turn out, whose owners will not be able to do this for ever.

David177

2013/11/10 at 9:30 am

Dear Andrew

Since 2001 modern yawls have been entitled to sail in the Blue fleet but they have not been eligible for prizes, hence there have been very few takers.

My suggestion is that the Modern yawls should be encouraged to enter the Blue fleet and as an incentive the Green fleet prizes should be awarded to them. This will result in the best of both worlds. This combined Blue fleet will foster social integration and it will encourage the migration of ownership and hopefully the migration of helms and crews between the modern and classic yawls.

The modern yawls that opt to sail in the Blue fleet will come from the slower end of the Red fleet (Typically the 6 to 9 boats that prefer to sail in the Green fleet.) this should result in close mixed racing across the new Blue fleet. The results should be posted as a single combined fleet but the prizes will be awarded to both Modern and Classic yawls regardless of the combined fleet results ( in the same way as prizes are awarded to the first Stone/Morrison) The combined fleet results will be of academic interest only

.

Given that there is a limit of 25 yawls in each fleet it will mean that the slower blue yawls may be moved to the Gold fleet (this will inevitably include Modern yawls in time.) This should not be to unpopular given that they already have a private battle going on (see Y89 posting from David) It will also help maintain a range of ability in the Gold fleet which will help to raise the overall standard in this fleet and help to keep it interesting. Any yawls are eligible for prizes in both the Red and Gold fleets so the Gold fleet enlarged in tho way will become a natural home for modern yawls if they slow down enough due to the ageing of both the Modern yawls themselves and their owners.

All we will then need is a few classic yawls to decide to take on the Red fleet (Maybe Y15 Y19 & Y28 which are now effectively modern yawls in terms of their construction) and we will have achieved integration across all fleets.

Regards

Charles Thompson Y 189

Hi All,

Thank you for keeping me informed on the Yawl fleet discussions

As the owner of Y142 (blue fleet boat) which is currently mothballed. I would just like to add my support for keeping the two fleets separate.

Andrew has asked why some yawls no longer race. In my case, i found no pleasure in saturday afternoon racing, with only a handful of Yawls sailing, mostly red. Sailing in effect my own race,with no chance of catching the red fleet boats ahead. As someone who was new to dinghy racing, i was also aware i was not learning in this environment either. The lure of the large, close racing of the Solo fleet was too much and i changed fleet.

I do not think it is very easy to entice new people to sail a blue fleet Yawl at present, with the continual uncertainty over the fleets. I believe a thriving blue fleet yawl class could be built up again if people knew the fleet were to remain separate from the red fleet. This i think may only be possible if a new classic yawl association were set up, who could police membership to protect the blue fleet as its own class. It may also be necessary to look at the cost of sailing a yawl, maybe blue fleet boats could all be wet sailed to reduce costs and make the fleet more evenly matched, giving to more enjoyable racing.

I would look forward to seeing a healthy blue fleet back out on the water again, they are synonymous with Salcombe estuary.

Regards

John Couling

Hi all,

I believe that we have a system that recognises the performance difference between “blue” and “red” fleets perfectly adequately. It is simple and non-contentious on the water. The two fleets start together for Saturday racing which works well. The fact that separation invariably occurs after two legs confirms that it would be grossly unfair to mix the top ranking blue boats with the bottom ranking red boats for regular Saturday racing, open weekends and regatta week.

There is a risk of demotivating the blue fleet, with its solid local base, with ill-considered change.

The greater point seems to me to be how to get more activity in the red fleet especially on Saturdays.

Best wishes,David (Y108)

Dear Andrew

Re: SYOA Red/Blue Fleet Split

Here are my thoughts about the SYOA.

There continues to be a red/blue fleet divide. We are all Salcombe Yawls and in any class there are usually aspirations to get better, either by more practice or by having a better boat. If this is not the aspiration, some people are happy with their lot at the middle of back of the fleet.

The reason the fleets developed was because the number on the start line in Regatta week had to be restricted.

In the early days the most grief caused was at the bottom of the red fleet and the top of the blue fleet cut off because it was seen as 2 fleets rather than 1 class split. The divide was chosen at the time by seeding the newer boats not the helms.

At the time we were awash with silverware and in hindsight this may now be confusing much of the debate.

I do not believe seeding will work because it will have to become a subjective judgement and nobody should suffer the responsibility. Seeding by results is skewed by breakages, illness, other commitments etc. A flight system might work but I do not think we have sufficient numbers to warrant it.

If numbers for an event are not excessive there is absolutely no need to split the class and we should all race together. There can still be prizes in the normal way for both categories of yawl.

I am sorry but I totally object if people say the red fleet boats are too aggressive on the start line or that they are more manoeuvrable. This is not the case if everybody obeys the rules, which most do.

If a start is intimidating for some, there is no reason for them not to hang back.

If the fleet has to be split because of excessive numbers then it rather depends on the restricted limit. In an ideal world there would be no need for the green and gold fleets to race separately.

I would also have the top fleet with the maximum number possible as allowed by the Harbour office, which would probably be the red fleet, green fleet and half the blue fleet. The rest might be content to sail in their own fleet without prizes.

I know this contradicts what I said about seeding, but it may be easier to seed the blue and gold fleet than the red and blue fleet. At least the best boats and their crews would all sail together and the banter in the bar would be better.

Personally I have a red fleet yawl but cannot compete in the Red Fleet without a top helm. I have a Salcombe Yawl but I am excluded from the blue fleet. This is not right just because I have spent money on a modern yawl. I am not sure this is legally very watertight in any event! There is a general opinion from the Blue Fleet that we have different yawls. We do not but this perception is beginning to ruin the class and divide it. Eventually both fleets will suffer and the class will die.

Most of the red fleet yawls are looked after in good condition. Some of the blue boats are in a shocking condition and others have had a fortune spent on them. There is probably a bigger discrepancy within the blue fleet than there is in the red.

I do not want to accuse some people of pot hunting nor of being inferior sailors, but there is a definite suspicion that some people get blue boats to win prizes knowing they are not capable of competing in a red fleet boat. This is sad and I would say unfair to those at the bottom of the red fleet pack and those with green fleet boats who perhaps are better sailors and have aspiration to go as fast as they can. I just want us all to sail together in one united fleet so we are one class on and off the water. Currently this is not the case and the camaraderie is much diminished by the small numbers sailing in separate fleets.

It is not a simple fix but I feel those who have sailed the most in other clubs and in other classes should be those to put their heads together to resolve these issue.

Getting people to sail on Saturday series is another issue not connected with the fleeting issue, so for another discussion about getting people in boats generally.

Good luck with the committee meeting on 7 December 2013.

Best wishes

Andrew

Andrew Reed

Hi Andrew. I dont seem to have the ability to post directly on the web site so trust you can put these thoughts forward. It would seem to me that there two different problems. One is the turn out for club racing and the other is the difficulty in selling boats that are banned from joining in with blue fleet. The club racing topic has been well covered and as many owners live away one is going to have to encourage these owners to spend more weekends in Salcombe.

The only reason given for a red fleet boat to be banned from sailing with the blue boys is that it is to fast. So how about slowing them down.It was very interesting over the Baltic weekend how much slower the red boat became with extra weight on board. They were slow to respond to the gusts,tacked slowly and had more wetted area running. Basically they behaved much more like an older boat as they were not designed for the extra weight.I heard lots of people from both fleets commenting on these observations.

So how about a requirement that any red fleet boat joining the blues simply has to add correctors to slow them down.Far easier than letting blue boats reduce weight as some have suggested The other advantage is that at any time the boat can be converted back by removing the weight.So your new owner can join in at what ever level he feels happiest with and the move if he wants to.

Just another thought for the debate. not sure what the weight will need to be or its position in the boat.Perhaps David G with his design knowledge could work something out.. Graham Y154

Dear Andrew, Although I haven’t been racing Y60 very much recently, may I suggest what I believe may be a fairly simple solution? If anyone buys a boat which is nominally in the red fleet, but does not feel that he has the experience to compete at that level, he should be allowed to sail in the blue fleet, where he will be welcome. When he regularly finishes in the top 3 – or whatever other criterion you may choose – he is promoted to the red fleet. No problem with handicaps – quite apart from the hassle of handling them on race days, how do you set them fairly in the first place? Best wishes Jeremy

Ref. Graham’s comment, a few year’s ago we raced 157 on handicap in the Chichester Snowflake, each week the club added a minute to our handicap until we stopped winning, fortunately we had won the series by then. The same could go for weight, add 5 or 10kg a week until equilibrium, however this could be as much of a personal handicap as it is a boat handicap, since as previous posters have noted the difference in part might be in the diferences in “race preparation” between the fleets or, dare I say, in the ability of the helms.

Various Blue fleet members suggest that there is no problem, and values are driven by the austerity, I think that you are wrong. No-one is going to buy a new or modern yawl if they cannot see a market to sell it agoin in the future, effectively they may invest between £ 35k and £ 50k and the day they take delivery it has no value. That is the problem some of our “retiring” owners have, and that is why we will have difficulty in attracting new and younger sailors into the class.

David

Y177

Hi Andrew and fellow contributors

I have read all the comments made so far with great interest. Although I have owned two Yawls, my experience level is low, even as a crew (!!), so my comments may be treated with the contempt they no doubt deserve. However I have, and there are many who could contribute to this debate with far more history than I, witnessed the changing fortunes of Yawls since 1996. I agree, on the whole, with all those that say economics, popularity, changing circumstances happen to all fleets and when in the doldrums, after a time, they recover. Maybe that is correct and without doubt the Solos are a good local example of this. However, not withstanding all the fine words that have been written, there is a danger that keeping the status quo, although easier to agree with, may in the long run be the poorer decision with regards Yawls in their different categories. I can fully understand the argument, ‘if it ain’t broke don’t fix it’. The question I would pose though, is what happens when the current and lets not be shy about saying this, ageing helms and crew, hang up their tillers and jib sticks. We could of course wait until that happens but I think history would judge us as poor custodians of this wonderful tradition of owning a Yawl. Certainly, I would say that in 1996 there was far more generosity of spirit, both on the water and in the bar, as a result of having one fleet. I know having one fleet is a difficult task, for a host of reasons but I would urge you in your discussions to not only think about the current state of affairs but particularly the future.

I do understand the arguments by those for keeping the status quo but in the long run doing nothing may turn out to be an opportunity missed.

In any event, I welcome the debate.

Best wishes to all

Mike (Y166)

 

Dear Committee,

as you would expect a wide range of views and suggestions and clearly it is going to be difficult to please all.

However I think there is a SAFE AND SIMPLE way forward for us, namely:

MAKE THE GREEN FLEET A PERMANENT FEATURE.

This then:

Provides a fleet for all boats to race competitively.

Makes all boats marketable subject to the usual supply and demand proviso.

Offers a wide range of choice ( both experience and pocket) to anybody wanting to sail in the class

Provides officers the greatest flexibility when organising the annual regatta and the opens.

If any fleet is seriously undersubscribed then it simply gets incorporated in the start of another that has room to accommodate it. All fleets retain their own identity and prizes.

There is no need to change what we have currently, it works perfectly well, simply adopt this green fleet measure is my suggestion.

Yours

Peter Y161

 

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